Nord Keyboards

[Deleted]

Hey Owen, i want to start playing shows around toronto but am in need of a high quality portable keyboard. I was looking into the nord stage keyboard, and then recalled you were using something similar. Any advice?

[Owen from Final Fantasy]

Overall, Nord keyboards are too expensive. Don't buy one without renting it first.

I don't like the Electro or the Stage. At all. They are too heavy, too expensive, and you can't modify the sounds in any useful ways. And the sounds--except the Wurlitzer---all sound great in headphones but lousy pumping through a PA.

The Nord Wave is great, I use it live. It's expensive but very easy to use. It does digital sampling---all the sounds of the Electro are on it, plus Mellotron sounds, and you can edit your own waveforms and create your own digital patches. And, it doe virtual analog synths, which sound great, too. It has a series of very useful FM synthesis presets. Every patch has four "oscillator" slots, where you pick your sample or your waveform or your FM synth or what have you... these slots in turn can be routed through two separate configurations of envelope filters, effects, LFOs, delays, etc. etc. etc.

It sounds confusing, perhaps, but I assure you, it's easy.

The Nord Modular is a tonne of fun, download the demo from the Nord site. And the Nord Lead continues to be the easiest and nicest sounding nu-synth keyboard.

If you're looking for a digital piano, go with a Yamaha P-120. (Not the P-150 or any other Yamaha keyboard, just the P-120.)

If you're looking for an inexpensive and great nu-synth, I'd recommend the Lead 2x. It can sound like a Juno or an Oberheim, and it's much more reliable than those 80s chestnuts.

And if you have some cash to burn and want a synth that'll keep you busy for a couple of years, go with the Wave. It does everything I've asked it to do---except it doesn't have an arpeggiator. Bummer.

[Deleted]

Hey, thanks a lot! You couldn't have been more helpful. I do intend to rent first just to make sure it's what i require. Sound modulation is a must must must so that rules out the Stage.

What i was looking for is something with the flexability of a nu-synth but also jam packed with really good piano sounds for layering. I already have a Roland Super Jupiter and an Oberheim Matrix 6R and anything is possible between those two. So It's difficult to justify spending the money.

The P-120 just might to be the way to go. The soft pedal and half pedal techniques are really important and it sounds like they've got it down.

[Deleted]

So i hit up L&M in Toronto and they said they don't really rent the Nords, but I liked both the Stage and the Wave. They said in all 25 stores or whatever that there are no P-120s but they can maybe find one.

I'm under the impression that all avaliable keyboards are in some way defficient. I suppose the company figures they will increase the lifespan of their products.

I was really close to putting a down payment on the Wave. I figure there wont be a new one until next spring so a little more homework and then we'll see.

[suburbanmyth]

This is a super interesting thread, so informative!
I have been looking for an alternative to my Casio CT-638 (well, it was free, you see) as PLAYING-EVERYTHING-AT-ONE-VOLUME-ALL-THE-TIME is really really annoying. Anyways, I think I might deserve something a bit better now so I'm going to check out that Yamaha P-120. Hopefully I have better luck with the stores in BC!

[names]

Wow. I had no idea I knew so little about anything.

What this sounded like to me:

Jul 2, 2008 7:42:32 GMT -5 Owen from Final Fantasy said:

Overall, Nord keyboards are too expensive. Don't buy one without renting it first.

The Nord Wave is great, I use it live. It's expensive but very easy to use. The quantum mechanics are good, but the magnetosphere isn't very flexible. I like to switch on the hyperdrive, that way I can reverse the polarity on stage if I need to.

The Electro is powered by cold fusion, which is cool, but I think it's a bit excessive for my needs, and when the wavefronts bump into each other, it can trigger a soundstorm that takes ages to mop up. You can, if you want, coerce the magistrate, but to be honest, the triceps just aren't sturdy enough to justify the cost. Once the enamel starts to decay, you might as well be using a Yamaha.

If you are going with a Yamaha, make sure you've got the right Paladin for the job, or else you just won't get the same kind of entrenchment. So long as you're only reinforcing the flank, it's fine though.

[Deleted]

UPDATE! I bought the Nordwave! It is everything i hoped it would be and more. The morph function is like a dream come true and I don't even miss the arpeggiator.

If all goes well i'll have some really cool music to share with the world. Stay tuned!

Oh, and a big thanks for the advice Owen!

[Deleted]

Owen, have you been getting good use out of the wave? It seems a bit underrepresented in the live performance. Which is cool. Do you like the morphing?

It's been great to help me learn different things about synthesis I didn't know. I like getting the oscillator sync on both the keyboard scaling and velocity. Or a smooth vocal filter pad where you can tap rhythms on the keyboard tracking and slope.

[sarpedon]

Jul 20, 2008 21:58:35 GMT -5 names said:

Wow. I had no idea I knew so little about anything.

What this sounded like to me:

Jul 2, 2008 7:42:32 GMT -5 Owen from Final Fantasy said:

Overall, Nord keyboards are too expensive. Don't buy one without renting it first.

The Nord Wave is great, I use it live. It's expensive but very easy to use. The quantum mechanics are good, but the magnetosphere isn't very flexible. I like to switch on the hyperdrive, that way I can reverse the polarity on stage if I need to.

The Electro is powered by cold fusion, which is cool, but I think it's a bit excessive for my needs, and when the wavefronts bump into each other, it can trigger a soundstorm that takes ages to mop up. You can, if you want, coerce the magistrate, but to be honest, the triceps just aren't sturdy enough to justify the cost. Once the enamel starts to decay, you might as well be using a Yamaha.

If you are going with a Yamaha, make sure you've got the right Paladin for the job, or else you just won't get the same kind of entrenchment. So long as you're only reinforcing the flank, it's fine though.

hahaha, I can explain it, if you want though; I don't want to sound like a know-it-all

[orangefox]

I'm actually a bit curious. My knowledge is placed extensively in more traditional instruments, but I'm trying to learn more about things like this. I think I understand some of it in the vague sense of knowledge you tend to pick up.

[sarpedon]

Nov 17, 2008 23:36:47 GMT -5 orangefox said:

I'm actually a bit curious. My knowledge is placed extensively in more traditional instruments, but I'm trying to learn more about things like this. I think I understand some of it in the vague sense of knowledge you tend to pick up.

aiight (takes big breath); The Nord Wave does digital sampling, which typically takes one sample of a sound, and transposes (pitch bends) to the surrounding levels; some rather, have a sample of every note, which sounds better, but takes far more memory/costs more. Having the sounds of the Electro and Mellotron is pretty self-explanatory; though I will explain the advantage of a keyboard with Mellotron sounds, and what a Mellotron is:
the Mellotron was pretty much the proto-synthesizer/sampler, if you will; the piano roll (keyboard) was connected to tiny cassette tapes via heads to rollers rather than hammers to strings like a piano. Each note had a separate cassette part that played the corresponding note of (the presets were) an eight voice choir, string orchestra, flutes, brass, ect, though you could record over them. If you've heard Exit Music (for a Film) by Radiohead, the choir is actually a Mellotron with the choir patch loaded. Seeing as how massive, complex, expensive and, ultimately, impractical a Mellotron is, they were replaced by synthesizers soon; though since they sampled actual instruments rather than synthesized, they sounded quite beautiful, and were even able to attain polyphony.
Having said that, many modern synth makers realize how amazing the Mellotron sounded and many good synths have at least some of the Mellotron sounds included in the banks.
Including virtual analog synths is similar in theory, since they are quite expensive, and for the most part extinct, but (to me and many others), have a sound that is unmatched by digital synthesizers.
Fm synthesis is an arguably better sounding changing of the pitch of a sound, and was prominent with the analog synth age.
In short, having mellotron, analog and FM synthesis is a FANTASTIC feature, and the keyboard is worth it for those alone, but thats not all!
Programming patches (or sound presets) is essentially making "sounds" for your keyboard. You use a sample, FM synthesis, or oscillator. In this case, being able to use four at a time is also a great feature which makes you able to create that many more sounds on your synthesizer. The oscillator starts with a raw sound shape (sine, square, triangle, sawtooth, ect.) and is altered by (in this case) two effects racks per patch containing envelope filters (changing the frequency and resonance), effects, LFOs (making the sound have a dynamic pitch change, affected by shape, amount, and rate), delays, and as Owen said, so on.
In short, fantastic keyboard, but as Owen also said, no arpeggiator (making the sound automatically jump up and/or down at a set speed and pattern[The Knife song Silent Shout is pretty much all arpeggiator, and The Arctic Circle live appears to have a quite rapid broad arpeggiator, or it could just be Owen's magic fingers {I know, that sounded really creepy...}}) which isn't a deal-breaker, but is a con, but you could probably buy a small synth with one and hook it up to the Wave if you really wanted it.
everything else is pretty self-explanatory (the Lead 2x sounds like a Juno or Oberheim, two great 80's synths, minus all the mess and hardware hassles).
phew, that was a lot; if there are any questions, feel free to ask or correct me if I'm wrong!

[Deleted]

It needs to be condensed more than corrected. The thread is about keyboards for live performance. There are a lot of options all with their own pros and cons. The Nordwave is simply a means to an end.

Analog synthesizers arguably produce the best tone, yes. You have all heard these classics on many of the great records of the past 40 years. They were most prevalent through the 70's and early 80's. In the middle of the 80's a drastic change in keyboard instruments had begun. New digital polyphonic synths flooded the market. They were moving away from the raw electronic sounds of analog and providing the musician with different flexibility. These days you can run a half decent synth rig using software synths on a laptop hooked up to a midi keyboard.

For live though you have to really think about what you require. If you want that classic analog synth sound you have to realize they are expensive, heavy, have restricted polyphony (how many notes they can play at once), can require maintenance and repairs, and have limited modulation (sound changing) possibilities.

The best examples of digital synths from 80's are excellent instruments but not very practical for playing shows with. Many were available in both keyboard and rack-mount form and depending on if you need it for studio or live you buy one or the other. I'm fortunate that my dad owns several great examples of this time period, however they are all in rack mount form (no keyboard). To play shows with these would be impractical because I would likely want more than one and then would require bringing a midi setup. You also have a really hard time touching up your sounds on the fly because of display screens that can be tricky to navigate. This was not the answer.

Clavia is a Swedish company who understands the dilemma of people in situations not unlike mine. As a result they have developed the Nordwave. A live performance keyboard with the capability of emulating both Analog and Digital synths and combining the features of the two. Every change you can make to the sound has it's own button or knob neatly arranged on the keyboard for quick and efficient use. They also allow you to control many of these parameters at once with what they call a morph function. This allows for radical changes to your sounds fast in a live environment.

To make the package more complete they allow you to use high quality recorded samples and mess with them as you would a basic synth tone. Plus the mellotron library, plus FM synthesis (lightly implimented but still useful), plus sampled waves, plus some sort of wavetables, plus plus plus.

[Owen from Final Fantasy]

1. I love the morphing. The S/H LFO doing a subtle modulation of the oscillator pitch is my favourite.
2. The reason I haven't used the Nord live as often as I'd like is because it's only recently that I settled on it. Many new songs make use of it.
3. Arctic Circle -> fingers. Not magical, just sore.
4. The Mellotron sounds on the Wave are not quite as nice the Melloman or that expensive German recreation. No comparison with a real Mellotron, but still pretty fun.
5. In recording, I've been using the Wave a lot more than I expected I would. It's so easy to program, I think of a sound, and there it is. I thought I'd be using my fabulous sounding Prophet 8 more than I have been.
6. All in all, the biggest sonic difference between analog synths and digital synths are in the sounds where there are discernible long filter sweeps... which aren't my thing anyway. I'll go on record and say that, if I had to sell all my synths, the last to go would be Nord Wave. I'm so surprised that I like it so much, seeing as how much I detest the Electro and the Stage.

[sarpedon]

Thanks for the condensation, I wasn't sure if they were asking about keyboards in general or the features of the Wave.

By the way, personally, I use Propellerhead Reason (an analog synth rack program [with drum kits, multiple synths, effects, ect.]), rewired through Ableton Live (for sequencing and recording), hooked up to a midi controller, hooked up to my laptop. I use it for recording and writing, but it would be just as easy to use as a live keyboard, be a lot less expensive, and pretty damn versatile. The analog reproduction is spot on, and most of the sample patches have each note recorded, rather than transposing one.
Reason is here: www.propellerheads.se/products/reason/
Here are my personal favorite midi-controllers:
www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.family&ID=USBkeyboardcontrollers
If you wanted to go that route(I recommend it[though I've never owned an actual synth], Reason has multiple synths, samplers, a drum machine, arpeggiator, and a ton of effects, and they can all be modded the hell out of, especially because you can press tab to view the back and change the wiring manually) it's about $400, but you can always download a torrent for free...
And the m-audio midi controller (full size keyboard) ranges from $200-400. So you're looking at a total of anywhere between $200-$800, compared to the $2000+ for the Wave. Also, you'd only need Ableton Live if you wanted to record, but it can be useful live as well (hence the name). It also has it's own library of synths and drum kits, which are better for performing live (as is the nature of the program) versus Reason, where you'd have to stop the music to change devices; though if you're gonna be playing by yourself with just one keyboard, that wouldn't be an issue. Propellerhead Reason+midi controller is ideal if you want to save a TON of money and use very good analog synth software (I've been using the Controller+Live+Reason set up for recording and composing for over a year).
For live, Reason is quality, but Live is more practical I guess, but you could use both like I said, and it'd still be a lot cheaper than a Wave; but it's really down to what you want to do. If you don't mind being laptop based, then this is the route; but if you want a real, decked out synth; as Owen said, the Wave is the way to go.

[Thomas]

mmmmm.

Well this has totally convinced me to try (then buy) one.