snoitatnemal
Go Away
everything we hold... will pass away...
Posts: 134
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Post by snoitatnemal on Apr 25, 2005 18:02:13 GMT -5
another question.... why did satan, while he was still an angel, all the sudden decide to turn against God.. where did this desire come from? is not God the creator of all things? did God create evil? or was evil just always there like God was always there?
not knowing these answers, i still worship the Lord, our creator...
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Post by Stuci Firme on Apr 25, 2005 22:24:05 GMT -5
the story of creation and the fallen angels is mystically allegorical to the explaination of the process of spirit falling into matter.. also the dualism between the spiritual (holy) and physical (evil)..
contemplating these myths about angels, gods and devils with human personalities is ubsurd.. why WOULD 'Satan' decide to leave heaven? why would 'God' let this happen..
many hold the Bible stories to paint the characteristics of God and Satan, but they are strewn with hints of political manipulation and public control which lead to idol worship.. (yes at the moment i consider worshipping a personalized god 'form' idol worship of one's own ego and imagination)
i don't think God, or the cosmos, or nature, or whatever you'll call 'it/him' is impersonal and purely mechnical.. the evidence of creativity and intelligence is all around us.. but i don't think God can ever be defined, because God is eternal, and form implies finiteness.. that which has no beginning or end can have no form except for the all encompassing and immutible form of everything that is...
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Post by 242 on Apr 25, 2005 23:23:25 GMT -5
the story of creation and the fallen angels is mystically allegorical to the explaination of the process of spirit falling into matter.. also the dualism between the spiritual (holy) and physical (evil).. will you clarify this... (for the humbly unschooled;)) Are you saying that the story of creation, as written in the bible, is simply a metaphor used for political influence and therefore can easily become idol worship as it points back to our self-proclaimed creative ability to imagine a fictional "good" and "evil." If that's true then why would the bible be written by outsiders, screw-ups, murderers, the faithless, adulters and the uneducated, all proclaiming their shortcomings, and all pointing to the hero of the book a (you guessed it) poor galilean man who was brutally murdered. I mean if we were writing a story to glorify ourselves, or for some political agenda (which is usually to glorify ourselves) don't you think we'd be a little more... I don't know Braveheartish?
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Post by Stuci Firme on Apr 26, 2005 0:40:46 GMT -5
i wasn't really getting at that the creation story was political propaganda.. but that it coincides with the esoteric teachings of many other religions and beliefs.. (kaballah, hinduism, buddhism)..
the gospels of the new testament were published over a hundred years after Christ's death..and none of which were written by Jesus himself.. during a time when Rome was converting to Christianity and assimilating it to fit with the current pagan beliefs.. they also coincide with many other myths from previous pagan religions about an 'only begotten son' born of virgin birth who died on a cross for the salvation of the world.. (Bacchus, Mithras, Osiris, Horus, Attis, Adonis, Prometheus, Hercules, Serapis, Hermes).. all of which precede the christian era..
it starts to get tiring after a while when you see how unoriginal Christianity is
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Post by 242 on Apr 26, 2005 9:16:52 GMT -5
Does that mean your turned off of all "faiths" or "religons" or whatever you want to call them because they're redundant? I guess you did say you believe in some sort of "creative intelligence." Also, who do you believe Jesus was?
For me, I've heard that argument about pagan religons resembling christianity long before christ came, speaking of the one true hero coming to save everybody and there's one thing that doesn't add up. Christianity didn't start when christ came... it began with the old testement. With the Jews. So if the Jews were around for a really long time and probably everyone thought they were completely arrogant because they kept saying they were the "chosen" and all that, then wouldn't you think that everyone wanted to come up with a bigger and better religon?
So isn't it possible that pagan religons, taking there ideas from the jews and their prophecies would be long established and would oddly resemble Christianity by the time Jesus showed up on the scene?
Sure they may have preceded Christianity, but did they precede the Jews?
It's something I've been thinking about. I heard in a lot of major religons there's some sort of story running along the same lines as the noah's ark story (that the earth flooded and one guy and his family survived) but I'm not totally sure.Just thought that was interesting...
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Post by Stuci Firme on Apr 26, 2005 10:22:22 GMT -5
yeah the flood story is another prevailent theme..
even the other religions before the jews have all the defining characteristics of the Christian story.. (hinduism, zoroasterianism, the chanldeans).
i think for the most part, the great modern religions have nothing in common with their original teachings, but each only seek to control and dominate parts of the world..
i know how much Christians get pissed off when people say things like this, but yeah I think Jesus was an initiate, very learned in the sacred mysteries. not merely a one and only orginal god on earth, but one in a succession of saviors.. just like Buddha, he taught simple parables to the public as but revealed to his disciples the arcane teachings, as illustrated by Mark 4:10-12:
"And when he(Jesus) was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."
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Post by Arkham on Apr 26, 2005 13:10:37 GMT -5
Jesus reminds me a lot of Bob Dylan.. for one he was a jew.. two he drew a big influence on the grass roots folk singers from the 20s and 30s as well as the delta blues guys often stealing melodies (see blowin in the wind, masters of war which were two of his most famous and seemingly profound protest songs). he assimilated them all into a relatable, digestable form for the mass public to use and created a new take on an old form which exploded in popularity. it does take a genius/prophet type (not saying bob is a prophet) to do something like this and i think the both of them pulled it off quite nicely.. ;D
Stu, can you name any good concise texts of ancient mystic religions?
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Post by Stuci Firme on Apr 26, 2005 18:23:14 GMT -5
Stu, can you name any good concise texts of ancient mystic religions? check out www.sacred-texts.com/ .. there's lots of older texts.. kinda have to find them out..
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Post by h on Apr 26, 2005 22:25:06 GMT -5
that site is cool my mom threw out my copy of the tibetan book of the dead the other day because she thought i was joining "their cult"
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snoitatnemal
Go Away
everything we hold... will pass away...
Posts: 134
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Post by snoitatnemal on Apr 27, 2005 12:15:05 GMT -5
christianity started with creation not the jews... the name christianity is just a label. actually christianity has always been and will always be. so unoriginal as it may seem doesnt really matter... it is still the truth.
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Post by Arkham on Apr 27, 2005 14:41:05 GMT -5
Judaism (or the earliest texts) has been around a few thousand years longer than Christianity.. your claim that Christianity has been around since the beginning of time isn't really correct because Jesus needed to physically come to earth (according to the Bible anyway) and be made an innocent sacrifice and overcome death to bridge the gap between God and Man. before this allegedly happened there was no Christianity as a religion.. i think you're more arguing the idea that the TRINITY has been around forever, and Christ being a part of that. there was no application of Christ to the people before he lived though, thus no christianity
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Post by 242 on May 1, 2005 23:09:27 GMT -5
The Jews were really the foundation of Christianity. So, when did that all start? And even before the Jews there was Abrahams roots right? And Noah? and before that? This is also one of the things that draws me in because it seems to be more than just picking a religon.
It's this huge long story that we either see ourselves as apart of or not. Christianity started out when people chose to follow Christ. However, the bible points to a relationship between humans and God long before Christ was around (physically, anyway.)
So it's more of a relationship rather than a "sign on the dotted line and you're good to go", which for a long time I thought it was. An insurance religon, just doesn't seem believable to me because it puts the focus on saving our ass rather than for something that created us to get all the glory. Which, I would assume if there is something greater than ourselves then it would be the center of the universe.
Kinda like we use to think the planets revolved around us, then we found out that we actually revolve around the sun? or should I say... revolve around the son? Sorry, couldn't resist the cheese...
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Post by Stuci Firme on May 1, 2005 23:53:27 GMT -5
and let's remember that there are other sources of history other than the Bible.. and that relationships between humans and God are not traits exclusively belonging Christianity/Judaism
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Post by Arkham on May 2, 2005 17:59:59 GMT -5
The Jews were really the foundation of Christianity. So, when did that all start? And even before the Jews there was Abrahams roots right? And Noah? and before that? This is also one of the things that draws me in because it seems to be more than just picking a religon. It's this huge long story that we either see ourselves as apart of or not. Christianity started out when people chose to follow Christ. However, the bible points to a relationship between humans and God long before Christ was around (physically, anyway.) So it's more of a relationship rather than a "sign on the dotted line and you're good to go", which for a long time I thought it was. An insurance religon, just doesn't seem believable to me because it puts the focus on saving our ass rather than for something that created us to get all the glory. Which, I would assume if there is something greater than ourselves then it would be the center of the universe. Kinda like we use to think the planets revolved around us, then we found out that we actually revolve around the sun? or should I say... revolve around the son? Sorry, couldn't resist the cheese... as wonderful as your breakthrough may be i don't really reconcile it with what we're talking about
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snoitatnemal
Go Away
everything we hold... will pass away...
Posts: 134
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Post by snoitatnemal on Jun 27, 2005 19:01:35 GMT -5
christians also ruined christianity
it seems that no one really knows anything anymore.. we all just have opinions. you can go to 2 diff churches and they will preach on some verse and have 2 diff explanations.. theology and religion and everything is all messed up. were all human, and we are all stupid.
"you ask me, "why God why?" "Because I'm God that's fucking why!" - Trivium
haha no one is in control of anything
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